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Post subject: Baptism in the Holy Spirit
 Posted: Jul 18, 2007 - 01:05 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Posts: 1489
Location: Mid -Iowa
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In another thread, a member raised the issue that the term "baptism in the Holy Spirit" was NOT a theologically correct term.
I searched for all the discussions and articles where we've talked about the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" during the past few years.
Much to my surprise, I discovered that we have never had a topic called "Baptism in the Holy Sprit"
For sure, we've had topics such as baptism in the Spirit AND... confirmation ...AND baptism ...AND how to get the baptism ....AND tongues ...AND emotions.
However, we've never disucssed baptism in the Holy Spirit all by itself. That's about to change.
The baptism in the Holy Spirit is one of those topics that everybody assumes that everybody else knows all about. A Reformation theologian and a charismatic and a Catholic can all use the term "baptism in the Holy Spirit" and assume they're talking about the same concept. It's only when they listen to each other that they realize they're talking about something entirely different.
To get the ball rolling, here are some links to a couple of articles on the topic from the Catholic point of view. These are followed by links to many of the discussions of the topic on this forum.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit by Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa One of the most concise presentations on the topic by the Papal Preacher himself. This is a sermon that was delivered before Pope John Paul II and his household. What is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit by Pat Mullins This is a very early article about the topic. It's apparent that the author mixed together a conversion experience and the baptism in the Holy Spirit. If you're confused by this article then you'll know how most of us old hands felt 30-40 years ago. Baptism of the Holy Spirit by Fr. Pat COLLINS The most recent contribution to the topic by one of the bishop's liaisons to the CCR in the UK. Fr. Collins is widely respected in the UK but seldom, if ever, attends conferences in the US. Links to threads....
Question on baptism in the spirit and tongues
Baptism in the Spirit and Confirmation
A Mega Overdose of the Holy Spirit
Sacrament of Confirmation vs Baptism of the Holy Spirit
A word about discussing this topic
I hope that we won't get bogged down in useless disputations about words but, I suppose, some of that will be inevitable. Remember: we're here to build each other up. Or, as my ring-master friend would say "We're here to edify, educate, elucidate and illuminate."
Finally, the following message is the one that originally started this thread. |
_________________
.ed.
Last edited by EMKeefe on Feb 02, 2010 - 08:57 AM; edited 2 times in total
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 18, 2007 - 03:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Posts: 59
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Hi EMKeefe,
Its a while since I posted, so I can only say it was a general feeling as i remember.
For example, things like the use of the term "Baptism in the spirit" is not a catholic term, as we believe in only one baptism....(you will know better than I if its Baptist or Pentacostal)...I have used the term myself to "fit in" as it seems there is an overall understanding that this means a spiritual boost of some kind.
The term is theologically incorrect though,  and adds to misunderstandings about the nature and action of the Holy Spirit as understood by the Catholic church. I guess that's one example of where liberalism over truth can be cited because (as far as I know the term is not contested here?)
While I appreciate it is the term familiar to converts, and there seem to be quite a few here; as a cradle catholic on a catholic forum I did find this kind of thing unhelpful and confusing when I first looked at your site some years ago, when I had first experieinced that re-kindling of the Holy Spirit within me, and was trying to make sense of it. At that time I decided to give the forum a miss and got clued up elsewhere. (BTW, found the articles on sacramentals commendable at the time! - they helped quite a few freinds of mine too; Thankyou.) 
At that time, I was one of the folks you mention in your drective, but I couldn't understand how Cathoic charismatics could claim to have been baptised twice.
" we assume that the members have either been baptized in the Spirit or are seeking information about the charisms or about being baptized in the Spirit ."
I quite understand that there are people who are polarised at both ends of the faith, ultra liberal, ultra conservative....and frankly i think both have missed the point of what being Catholic is all about!
You may be thinking that I am small - minded quibbling over a term that has seemingly been accepted into the Catholic faith, so be it, it was the only example that came to mind though. Its a bit similair to folks saying they are not being fed in the catholic church...? I can't comprehend that way of thinking.
So you see for a while I just wondered if I fitted in here at all.
I do hope these comments are helpful, and I am really pleased to be reassured of your position on desiring a balance. 
Yours, Char-coal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 18, 2007 - 09:00 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Posts: 1489
Location: Mid -Iowa
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The phrase Baptism In The Spirit
The statement has often been made that the phrase, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is not an acceptable term because the phrase is NOT used in Scripture.
There are several possible responses to this statement:
1) You could use the rejoinder that the terms "sacrament", "Trinity", "Pope", "mother of God", are not used in Scripture either. Yet we Catholics use these words with all the faith that is within us. We don't have any problems with these terms, so what's the problem with the phrase "baptism in the Holy Spirit" This is not a very good answer. If you tried to use this with a "Bible only" person who denied the reality of the baptism of the Spirit, you could expect to hear something like "All those other words you just said are man-made terms. They are not godly terms. Don't use them and don't use "baptism in the Holy Spirit". Two or more wrongs don't make a right." 2) It's true, the noun phrase "Baptism in the Spirit" is NOT used in the Bible. However, the verb phrase "baptize in the Spirit" IS used in each of the four Gospels. Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Mar 1:8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." Luk 3:16 John answered them all, saying, "I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Joh 1:33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
The noun phrase "baptism in the Spirit" was first used in the writings of the early Church Fathers. (SEE: Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit, McDonnell and Montague) The phrase "baptism in the Spirit" seemed to have faded from the writings of the Church over the centuries.
In the very early days of the Church, when water baptism was accompanied by manifestations of the Spirit, there was no need to distinguish between the rite of baptism and the effects of baptism. The phrase "in the Spiri" became superfluous.
The noun phrase "baptism in the Holy Spirit" was reintroduced into Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries by the so-called "holiness preachers". They meant something different by the phrase but the phrase had been re-introduced into the language. The phrase "baptism in the Holy Spirit" has taken on several different meanings over the centuries.
I'm afraid we're stuck with the phrase. There have been so many articles and books written that use the noun phrase, that it would be a monumental task to avoid using the phrase.
3) Some people say that the phrase baptism in the Spirit is confusing to Catholics since it implies that there is more than one baptism. If you think you're confused, just wait. There are at least five baptisms mentioned in the New Testament: i) the baptism of John (i.e., the baptism for repentance) ii) the baptism in the Spirit (and in fire) mentioned by Matthew and Mark, iii) the baptism in water and the Spirit (mentioned in John 3) iv) the baptism of suffering mentioned in Mk 10:38 v) the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus mentioned in Acts 19. I realize that some people have added to the confusion factor by talking with Pentecostals or reading non-Catholic documents on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Some of the Pentecostals believed in two baptisms. A few even believed in three baptisms. Let's agree to stick with ONE BAPTISM and see where that leads.
4) Some people suggest that a more expressive phrase be used to describe the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Contenders for a different expression include "infilling with the Spirit", "outpouring of the Spirit", "release of the Spirit", "empowerment with the Spirit", and on and on.
The problem with all the alternative phrases is that none of them have any more basis in Scripture than does the phrase "baptize in the Spirit". None of the proposed alternatives have gained enough acceptance by religious writers and speakers to outweigh the acceptance of the phrase "baptism in the Holy Spirit"
I'm afraid that, after forty years of wrestling with the phrase "baptism in the Holy Spirit", it's time to cry uncle and tell ourselves that the phrase has come out on top.
Is there anything else that needs to be said about the phrase "Baptism in the Holy Spirit"?
Do we want to spend time on the words or on the reality behind the words. |
_________________
.ed.
Last edited by EMKeefe on Jul 19, 2007 - 01:27 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 18, 2007 - 10:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 214
Location: California
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Well I think that we could use another term if we all got together and made teh effort. I of course don't think we are baptised twice. No catholic should really ever be led to think that either!
but yeah, that word is the one commonly used and I must admit, before today I really hadn't thought much of it.
Have there been tiems when the use of a different word would have been more helpful to bringing this movement of the Spirit to someone who otherwise was given an obstacle by the word "Baptism" in the holy Spirit?
In Christ,
your brother Ben |
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Post subject: Thank you/new Catholic
Posted: Aug 22, 2007 - 09:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 7
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Thank you so much for this thread. I realize now that I need not fear what the "energy" I felt at a healing Mass was...and also the whole question about speaking in tongues, which I also did.
I feel confident that prayer to Our Father and asking His Blessing that all that I experience in the Charismatic Movement is from Him and will not lead me astray (as an x-new-ager this was a question I had).
God will never let me down-by His Grace I am protected. God will never lead me down a wrong path. God is ever with me, protecting and guiding me.
Amen. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 23, 2007 - 12:16 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Posts: 1489
Location: Mid -Iowa
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Ben,
You asked about using a different phrase other than "baptism in the Holy Spirit" when speaking with someone who has "problems" with the phrase.
I'd say, use whatever terminology is best suited for the person. I'd then add that, in my experience, those folks who want to argue about the terminology really want to argue about something else.
So, in a sense, a person's willingness to accept or reject the phrase could almost act as a barometer of his or hers willingness to accept the grace that God wants to give him or her.
I just finished reading a book called Perspectives on Spirit Baptism: Five Views, edited by Chad Owen Brand. The five views were presented by a Catholic charismatic, a mainline Pentecostal, a Reformed theologian, a Protestant charismatic and a Wesleyan. There were five very long, scholarly articles followed by equally scholarly refutations by the other four authors.
If you thought that we might have problems with the terminology (and the idea behind the terminology) then read this book by five professional theologians, you'll be amazed.
I put the book down and shook my head in wonderment at how much ink and dead trees it took to try to describe a simple gift that God wants to give us. It was like reading five PhD dissertations written by the blind men who all had their own ideas of what an elephant was.
More later, |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 23, 2007 - 12:27 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Posts: 1489
Location: Mid -Iowa
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Lynne,
Thanks for the post.
You mentioned that you might have had some reservations about "losing control" (or something like that) as an effect of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. You also used the phrase "Our Father".
That's a great seque to my recommendation that you read Chapter 11 of the Gospel of Luke. The chapter begins with Jesus praying and then teaching his disciples how to pray. Then Jesus tells about the "gift of the Spirit" and how that might just get you to act like a "dumb" person who now can speak and pray in a way like you hadn't before.
See what the words from that chapter say to you and then, when you're ready, jump to the article called The Rest of the Story
Peace, |
_________________
.ed.
Last edited by EMKeefe on Jan 26, 2010 - 08:25 AM; edited 2 times in total
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 23, 2007 - 01:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 214
Location: California
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Well I love being filled with the holy Spirit and having experienced the "baptism" in the holy Spirit. The only thing I brought up Ed is that I was wondering if maybe a different term would help us to spread the renewal to more and more catholics. After all, I am not interested in words but in being all things to all people so to bring them to Christ.
I do see you have thought about this much! So I am happy to read what you have said. God bless you for your good works.
Maybe the best word we could use is in fact baptism in the holy Spirit. If that is so, then praise the Lord!
May God help us to spread the renewal and the grace of the holy Spirit far and wide.
in Christ,
your brother
Ben |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 23, 2007 - 02:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 7
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God Bless you and thank you very much. The rest of the story was wonderful. Oddly (?) enough, as I have been doing my reading, I got a email from my boss telling me I can change my work schedule so that I can attend the SCRC conference in Los Angeles.
I love God so very much. He blesses me each and every day. I am so very grateful!
Lynne |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 - 07:25 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Posts: 1489
Location: Mid -Iowa
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Toward a definition of "baptism in the Holy Spirit"
It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.
This would imply that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, including praising God in tongues and prophesying (i.e., telling of the marvelous wonders of God) should be present at each administration of the sacrament of confirmation. Sad to say, it rarely is the case that anyone manifests the Holy Spirit openly. Why not? Mainly because we're not told that it's OK to do so.
The citation given in a previous message, from the 1997 edition of the Catechism (#1302) is followed by the following statement.
From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
- it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!";
- it unites us more firmly to Christ;
- it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
- it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;
- it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross.
The purpose of the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is, simply put, to release the energy of the Spirit within us. As the song says, " I am the light of mid-day. I shine so all may see. Go light my path for others so they can follow me." |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 - 04:41 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Posts: 1489
Location: Mid -Iowa
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There are many ways to look at, and talk about, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (BIHS).
For example, when people talk about the "theology" or "scriptural foundations" of the BIHS, it's usually an objective presentation of the facts that are known about the experience.
On the other hand, when people speak about the effects of the BIHS in their own lives or the lives of others, it's what I'd call a "subjective" presentation.
For instance, one of the simplest subjective statements about the BIHS came from Rev. Tommy Tyson, a long-time evangelist and preacher in the Pentecostal/charismatic renewal. Francis MacNutt, in his book Deliverance from Evil Spirits (p.276), gives the following quote from his friend Tommy Tyson
Quote:
The Baptism in the Spirit is an event in our lives by which we become more constantly aware of the presence and power of the risen Christ"
I have used pretty much the same description over the years, except that I use the words "more ACUTELY aware" rather than "more constantly. ( well...actually, it's BOTH an acute and constant awareness.
As Francis MacNutt explains, further, we become aware of the PRESENCE of Jesus in and through His Spirit. Whereas, in the "born again experience" we typically accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, in the BIHS we experience Him more as a friend or, perhaps, as an elder brother and teacher.
Likewise, we become aware of the POWER of the Spirit through the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. We minister to others using these "power tools" rather than our own power. |
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Post subject: Another Analog for Baptism in the Holy Spirit
Posted: Jan 27, 2010 - 12:31 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Posts: 1489
Location: Mid -Iowa
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The Problem:
Ever since people became aware of the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" they've had questions. For example some questions might be: "Are you saying that there are TWO baptisms?"
"You say that in water baptism, we are filled with the Holy Spirit but in Spirit baptism, the Spirit is 'poured out' of us?
How does this happen?"
"Would it not be better to call the baptism in the Holy Spirit something other than a "baptism"? A Tentative Response to the Problem, Using an Analogy
One way to think of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is to imagine an empty bottle (or, if you like, one that is filled with junk).
In the sacrament of baptism, the water of the Holy Spirit is poured into the bottle, fills it and flushes out the junk that is inthere.How about the "baptism in the Holy Spirit"? Jesus described this experience in John 4 when He said to the Samaritan woman at the well, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you water that is alive." And, in another place, Jesus said, 'Out of the believer's heart shall flow rivers of living water.'" Now he said this about the Spirit, which believers in him were to receive;(Joh 7:38-39) Here is a way to imagine what Jesus was talking about. Think of this like a "thought-experiment" (don't try this for real: you could make a mess).
Imagine placing the bottle of water in a microwave oven and turning on the oven. Pretty soon bubbles of air (i.e., gases that are suspended in the water and also water that has turned into steam) will form and rise to the top. Eventually the water will boil and seem to come alive, forcing its way out the top of the bottle. In its own way an exploding bottle of water can be messy and noisy.
In this analogy, the Holy Spirit is both like the water and like the energy of light (microwaves). The baptism in the Holy Spirit is the explosive event. The bottle of water is not being baptized: rather, the surroundings are being baptized with living (boiling) water.
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I don't recall ever hearing or reading about this analogy.
Of course, the analogy doesn't require the use of a microwave oven. You could just as well imagine a metal or ceramic pot, filled with water, and put over a fire. In that case, you might have another analogy: "baptism in fire", right? |
_________________
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